“Underhooks” and common openings

Marin

Lao Tou
Staff member

It's interesting to watch this little clip. Obviously it's wrestling and not Taijiquan but it is very relevant. The complaints I have about the Chen Village commercial schools are the same for this. Being a legit mainstream combative sport the complaints would seem to make more sense in illustrating why there should be differences between the TJQ and wrestling approaches and again, sport vs.self defense. The funny thing though, is that while many might agree with the the complaints when looking at wrestling, magically it's ok when TJQ practitioners do it and, its just ignored.

In this case what we see is the same head resting on opponents shoulder, and what I think they call "underhook" arm positions, grabbing around the torso under opponents arms. I've complained about this for years with competition tuishou, how they basically took this approach from sport practices such as wrestling and Judo rather than traditional TJQ. Many times I have discussed the vulnerability of the shoulder strike etc to the head in that position, but there are many risks there. The underhook position, heavily favored by crude power, seeks to muscle the torso around and certainly a weak approach to a heavier opponent or in a situation that going to the ground is undesirable.

This video makes is pretty clear how the underhook approach disables, nullifies the hand ability to control upper body centerline at all, leaving such an opening for the opponent to walk in and basically fall on structure to break it and go to ground. Once the hands are locked into underhooks it is only a game of fast footwork and core strength. That might be great if you are the stronger heavier one but definitely not true in reverse.
 
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teesid

Jingang
Many times I have discussed the vulnerability of the shoulder strike etc to the head in that position, but there are many risks there.
Do you mean with TJQ would the underhooker have been shoulder struck before he could do anything else? The many risks, are they risks for the shoulder striker?
 

Marin

Lao Tou
Staff member
Do you mean with TJQ would the underhooker have been shoulder struck before he could do anything else? The many risks, are they risks for the shoulder striker?

Not exactly. Anyone embracing close and leaning their head on opponents shoulder is at risk. Of course they do put their head there in wrestling for a good reason, but that reason is based on the protective rules of the sport. Risks to the shoulder striker? Sure, always risks for both parties.
 

Edmond

Wuji
I'm quite a newbie to grappling. Coming from a striking perspective, they assume they could defend against grappling by knocking people out. Key word is assumption here, but I digress.

The understanding I got from a body-to-body discussion we had previously is that the advantage is with the bigger and stronger person. My guess at the reasoning is that there's not much leverage to work with, so it's all about raw power vs raw power. In Chen Taijiquan or Qinna in general, I observe that it's usually applied to some limbs. A smaller person using his/her whole body to crank on a limb has more mechanical advantage (and can inflict more pain/damage) than trying to directly work on the body mass of the bigger person. I hope that understanding makes sense.

I also found this video that explains some reasoning why underhooks are a bad idea in non-wrestling competition environments. Does it hit the key points?


In the video, they also talk about overhooks as a counter to underhooks. It kind of reminds me of many of the Chen Taijiquan applications that involve wrapping/snaking around the opponent's arm(s) to crank on.
 
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Robin Wu

Taiji Kitten
I also found this video that explains some reasoning why underhooks are a bad idea in non-wrestling competition environments. Does it hit the key points?

I'm also a newbie at grappling.

The video you shared seems to specifically stress to never use underhooks against a takedown attempt due to the risk of getting hit in the face as your hands are lowered.

I'm not too familiar with the terminology of "underhook", but what it does remind me of is stuff like the very beginning of this video (which I think is from Xie Xing?):

It looks to me that the video Marin shared uses the underhook to control the torso whereas in Xie Xing, it seems to control the opponent's shoulder by jamming the elbow against the crevice of the shoulder joint? And through attacking the shoulder, you control the opponent's torso?

And in the case of the Xie Xing video, neither side has their chin physically touching the opponent's shoulder - unlike the Facebook video, and I thought the risk was more related to having your face/head just resting on the opponent's shoulder because the opponent can just shoulder strike your face.
 

Edmond

Wuji
I'm not too familiar with the terminology of "underhook"

Wikipedia comes to the rescue here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underhook

It's reaching under the opponent's arm to hold onto the torso, if I'm reading it properly. Which is why I was referring back to this discussion here:


In the Xie Xing video, it looks like the arm is still being used as the lever. Chen Yu had the partner's hand on his shoulder, and it looks like he was applying force on the partner's shoulder to crank the arm. I'm guessing that this is not the same as grabbing the torso and trying to move all the weight. Instead, if the other person doesn't move, the arm that's being cranked would be in pain or get damaged, so they would prefer to go over.
 

Marin

Lao Tou
Staff member
A smaller person using his/her whole body to crank on a limb has more mechanical advantage (and can inflict more pain/damage) than trying to directly work on the body mass of the bigger person. I hope that understanding makes sense.
correct
I also found this video that explains some reasoning why underhooks are a bad idea in non-wrestling competition environments. Does it hit the key points?
Yes, some good points from these steak whiskey and American flag soldiers. But these guys are talking about not using underhooks to defend against takedowns at punching range. This is also very valid, but I did not consider that because as a striker I would absolutely never consider reaching down for underhooks at distance. That is just lowering guard, and again more likely to be considered by those who are afraid of takedowns which is not really my style. In my points I am talking about chosing NOT to use underhooks when already in clinch grappling range.

In the video, they also talk about overhooks as a counter to underhooks. It kind of reminds me of many of the Chen Taijiquan applications that involve wrapping/snaking around the opponent's arm(s) to crank on.

Yes well, that is also valid for the style or approach of these guys, which at least from the video appears to be still a bit more towards sport than we are. I am also not particularly enamored by the idea of 'overhooks', and we dont have these terms for a good reason. In his case these overhooks, for my purposes miss the point. This is a sport grappling approach I think, wrapping over the arms like that. I will make a bit of an assumption and say that this approach is adapted to the use of boxing gloves and the rules of sport engagement. From my experience with Chinese gongfu I would not be passing immediately to hooking over the arms when the neck throat and face are exposed. Do you see how he passed the neck and went straight to upper arm hooking? Again this is for folks who want t prevent or control a takedown while observing rules regarding neck or throat or the limitations of gloves to get into smaller spaces. In our case one of the absolute best ways to control takedowns is head (spine) control via neck and face/throat are really effective as well. They are not going to that first here which should illustrate their mindset.
 
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