Punching in this Style vs Combat Sports/MMA

[Maou]

Having lurked a little here and there,I've noticed that more than a few of you train in MMA/Combat Sports as well as Chen Shi Taijiquan,so I wanted to ask about the nature of punching (hand strikes) in this art as compared to how you punch (with gloves) in Combat Sports...

Truth be told,part of the reason I got interested in Classical/Traditional Martial Arts (After witnessing numerous evidence of their effectiveness,I was a doubter at one point in my life) is because of Gloves and how they no doubt influence the nature of punching done in the ring. Genuine traditional//classical arts,I imagine,punch and do hand strikes with this reality in mind. Karateka punch differently than Boxers,as an example.

Do you guys punch differently than Boxers/MMA'ers? maybe you guys do your own form of hand/fist conditioning?

I won't ask for too much detail since I'm sure I'm going to get these lessons once I get the chance to sign up,but I would like to know if my impression is accurate,that when you guys punch,you do so in a way that not only delivers effective force,but do so in a way that is less likely to injure your fist?

 

[duncanandrew.og]

There is a world of difference between punching with padded gloves, and punching with bare hands. If you look at photos of old-time bareknuckle boxers, their guard and stance is very different to modern gloved pugilists; no bareknuckle fighter would lay into his opponent's cranium with combinations the way that modern fighters do, since the human cranium is an incredibly hard surface. Bareknuckle fighters were cautious about punching an opponent's face, but not so much when it came to body shots - hence the lower, longer, palms-up guard, intended to protect from body shots.
Modern fighters typically hold their fists high with palms facing inwards, protecting from their opponent's gloved punches. Without gloves, this can be a risky strategy for both fighters; having the hand or distal forearm struck by bare knuckles can risk injury to the defender, while striking the proximal forearm or elbow can be very bad news for the puncher.

Following a 'street' fight, it is likely that the winner will be treated for hand injuries such as fractures, if he dominated the encounter with repeated punches to the face and head. In such an encounter, if neither aggressor is particularly skilled at punching, the situation most begins with shoving, likely progresses to grabbing or clinching, then as gravity takes its course, ends up in a wrestling situation.

 

[Maou]

Thanks for your input,Duncan!

Marin's latest comment spoke of how Sport Fight training can ingrain certain bad habits for out-of-the-ring application or even just in a less restricted ruleset. Besides the example Marin already provided talking about Wrestling,other examples I can give is some of the excessive bobbing-and-weaving in Boxing can land your face straight into getting kneed by your opponent in a Muay Thai/Kickboxing match. In MMA,you only wear trunks,but outside the ring,you can use an opponent's clothing against them. (or have it used against you if you're not careful)

I guess that's why fratboys take off their shirt just before they start launching fists. (seriously speaking,I don't feel this is ever really a good thing because you're giving up the preemptive advantage and announcing your intentions. If you HAVE to engage in a mano-y-mano,do it in the ring with referee and not on the street where you or your opponent could fall and crack your skull open.)

Of course,given the choice between having good training in any combat sport and having no training at all (or training in a terrible Mcdojo especially),I would definitely choose the 1st option 100% of the time. Being comfortable with hard contact in addition to know how to most effectively deliver force through your strikes is a massive edge. I'd take a broken fist over a broken face any day!

Fortunately,we are not stuck with those options in real life. The only catch is,you have to know where to look. (Unfortunately. Will there ever come a day in the future when one can go in a random local Karate or any TMA dojo and be sure that you're going to get authentic martial training? I sincerely hope so,but it doesn't seem likely...)

 

[duncanandrew.og]

Each and every combat sport with a ruleset is inherent with its own limitations:

- Ducking and weaving in boxing leaves you open to kicks/knees and head-control takedowns, such as the snapdown.
- The high, narrow stance of muay Thai leaves you open to single or double leg takedowns.
- The low, tucked-arms approach of wrestling leaves your face open to punches.
- The complete absence of any wrestling/takedown training in many modern BJJ schools renders you unable to fight unless both you and your opponent are on the ground.
- Except for gi jiu jitsu and judo, virtually all other styles fail to address the potential of clothing being grabbed.
- MMA ruleset, while being arguably the most comprehensive of all the combat sports, does not deal with the possibility of an aggressor who may headbutt, bite, scratch, attack the eyes or groin, or stomp a downed opponent.
- And don't even get me started on the garbage that is Olympic taekwondo (aka glorified after-school care).

 

[Marin]

Each and every combat sport with a ruleset is inherent with its own limitations:

- Ducking and weaving in boxing leaves you open to kicks/knees and head-control takedowns, such as the snapdown.
- The high, narrow stance of muay Thai leaves you open to single or double leg takedowns.
- The low, tucked-arms approach of wrestling leaves your face open to punches.
- The complete absence of any wrestling/takedown training in many modern BJJ schools renders you unable to fight unless both you and your opponent are on the ground.
- Except for gi jiu jitsu and judo, virtually all other styles fail to address the potential of clothing being grabbed.
- MMA ruleset, while being arguably the most comprehensive of all the combat sports, does not deal with the possibility of an aggressor who may headbutt, bite, scratch, attack the eyes or groin, or stomp a downed opponent.
- And don't even get me started on the garbage that is Olympic taekwondo (aka glorified after-school care).

This is a simply arranged and clean, interesting survey. I would say that at least Taijiquan to *some* degree does cross over to the clothing grab scenario, but that is because it is the "grand ultimate" bestest art ever, of course. A good training in Qin Na elements does cross over to clothing grab simply by familiarity with dynamic anatomy, although changes must be made.

 

[Maou]

Each and every combat sport with a ruleset is inherent with its own limitations:

- Ducking and weaving in boxing leaves you open to kicks/knees and head-control takedowns, such as the snapdown.
- The high, narrow stance of muay Thai leaves you open to single or double leg takedowns.
- The low, tucked-arms approach of wrestling leaves your face open to punches.
- The complete absence of any wrestling/takedown training in many modern BJJ schools renders you unable to fight unless both you and your opponent are on the ground.
- Except for gi jiu jitsu and judo, virtually all other styles fail to address the potential of clothing being grabbed.
- MMA ruleset, while being arguably the most comprehensive of all the combat sports, does not deal with the possibility of an aggressor who may headbutt, bite, scratch, attack the eyes or groin, or stomp a downed opponent.
- And don't even get me started on the garbage that is Olympic taekwondo (aka glorified after-school care).

Kudo is probably (At least legally to my knowledge. old school Vale Tudo has less restrictions,but I don't think that's legal anymore) the art that tries to come closest to,er...emulating "the street",but its pretty easy to see where their blindspot is. they are basically wearing it.

Rory Miller (renowned self-defense instructor and violence author) said this in one of his books,but you sacrifice realism in training for safety,and vice-versa. It obviously ruins the point of training for self-defense if every time people got on the mat,somebody (or even everybody,winning a fight doesn't guarantee you come out unscathed)is guaranteed to go to the ER or in a funeral casket. The other end is Kiddy Karate and Olympic TKD. so I suppose its choosing the correct balance.

Interestingly,Rory Miller is an advocate of "Slow Training",and it manifests in one of his fundamental training drills: His version of One-Step: (from Karate's One-Step Sparring)

DRILL: The One-Step

The one-step arose as a useful accident. Many years ago I was reading George Mattson's The Way of Karate and I completely misunderstood his description of ippon kumite. I thought, "That's brilliant—unscripted but safe, just looking at this whole thing as a meat geometry problem…" I had...

ymaa.com

I think the explanation in general behind the advocacy of Slow Training is that its easier to see mistakes and you are less likely to ingrain bad habits,and we don't have to worry about this negatively affecting us when we are in danger because nobody purposely fights slow when the shit hits the fan. here's an article by another martial artist regarding the topic:

Smooth is fast

I'm sure none of this is news to you guys though. "Slow Training" looks to be a huge part of Taijiquan training.

 

[angryclown]

Having trained with Rory, I'd say his slow training is different that what we do. Rory's "slow" is specifically geared towards sparring, in that it's a way to maintain good mechanics, correct range, etc., and the slow is just a way to not hurt each other. It's a great way to practice partner work and to explore techniques in a more free-form environment. It's also really fun.

In the context of this method of taiji practice, there is a ton of detail and a bunch of difficult, counter-intuitive things you have to constantly maintain with your body. I think a big chunk of the purpose of going slow is just so that your brain can keep up with all the demands that are being asked of it. Our "slow" is probably similar to Rory's in that it's relative to the ability of the practitioner. Someone with decades of experience might be moving much faster than someone with only a few years, yet to the experienced person the mental demands might feel much "slower" than they do to the newer person. Our way of practice is also fun, except it's what Andrew Skurka calls "type 2" fun. Or maybe type 3...

 

[Maou]

View attachment 63

You know,I've attempted to describe this concept to folks elsewhere in the past. That there are things we do because the activity in and of itself is fun (A martial arts related example in my case would be Sparring. Both Light and Hard contact. provided my training partner is not a dud,haha. This is more Type 2 fun though according to the image.) and then there are other things we do that describing as "fun" probably wouldn't really be accurate in the truest Spirit of the term,but we do them anyway because it leads to improvement in our craft and/or improvement of ourselves in general.

Training for Fulfillment, I think, is the most accurate term for this. I'd say this is the case for many who do Strength and Conditioning (especially that 2nd part,lol),its definitely the case for me. But this image fleshes out the general concept even better I think.

Thank you for this great share,Hassler!

 

[Marin]

I think the primary fun/benefit is not represented on this list. I would say in the beginning it is not fun and hurts quite a lot. At later stages it is a fun vs. challenging competition while hurts quite a lot but you are used to it. At even later stages it is very much fun and basically does not hurt (because you forgot that it hurts) but the biggest unmentioned aspect is the earned ability. That is the fun part. at later stages you just have that available to you, with or without pain and it's plenty fun and no longer a mentally or neurologically demanding situation.

 

[angryclown]

at later stages you just have that available to you, with or without pain

Lies! All lies!

 

[chrisdonnahee]

I can clearly NOT choose the wine in front of me!

 

[Edmond]

Rory Miller (renowned self-defense instructor and violence author) said this in one of his books,but you sacrifice realism in training for safety,and vice-versa. It obviously ruins the point of training for self-defense if every time people got on the mat,somebody (or even everybody,winning a fight doesn't guarantee you come out unscathed)is guaranteed to go to the ER or in a funeral casket. The other end is Kiddy Karate and Olympic TKD. so I suppose its choosing the correct balance.

This makes a lot of sense. Training realistically and safety are contradictory. It's kind of like a holy grail to be able to train both realistically and safe at the same time.

I was wondering what professionals who have high risk jobs do with their training. I did a bit of Googling on how the army and SWAT train, and the general vibe I got was that there's no such thing as realistic training. Technology like virtual reality and simulations are helping people get closer to realistic, but it will always be tangential. If the consequences are not real (i.e. you can die), the training is still really only an approximation.

So what do the professionals do for training? It seems like a lot of drilling of specific skills (e.g. shooting, climbing, etc.) and scenario-based drilling. The focus seems to be building on a foundation of skills and getting used to the flow of common situations. Beyond that, it's pray that you survive the real thing with the training you got. It will likely not be pretty, but hopefully you survive.

Going back to self defense, maybe the useful training would be to pick up martial arts that have particular skills/abilities that would be useful in how you think you will likely be attacked. Then, practice scenarios and sparring to put it together and hope for the best. Probably more useful is to practice situational awareness and avoid bad situations. The realistic thinking about the context of sport/simulation vs reality that others have written about above is sobering and important. Not many would be frank about those things, especially those who think MMA makes you untouchable and those self defense gurus trying to sell something.

Looking for a realistic martial art that will turn you into John Wick is probably not a realistic goal. Most people wouldn't survive the first 30 minutes of the first John Wick movie, let alone have 4 chapters and still going.

This video about hidden weapons and the instructor's story about how someone lived during the war times in China was sobering for me. It doesn't matter how hard you train, if weapons are involved, a lot of those skills get negated. So the best self defense skill is really avoiding and running away when you can. As for a reason to train martial arts, try to think of some more reasons than just self defense.

 

[Maou]

I think the primary fun/benefit is not represented on this list. I would say in the beginning it is not fun and hurts quite a lot. At later stages it is a fun vs. challenging competition while hurts quite a lot but you are used to it. At even later stages it is very much fun and basically does not hurt (because you forgot that it hurts) but the biggest unmentioned aspect is the earned ability. That is the fun part. at later stages you just have that available to you, with or without pain and it's plenty fun and no longer a mentally or neurologically demanding situation.

I already stated the number of reasons I got interested in Taijiquan in general,but one unique detail about your lineage that got me curious is that pain in the movements seem to be a GOOD thing here. Usually the case is that,if you are feeling pain (it should be noted that pain and "strain" are not the same things),you are doing something wrong in the exercise. At least when we are talking about mainstream exercises.

If you are Deadlifting,and you are feeling sharp pain in the lower back,you are doing something wrong. If you are running/jogging and you are feeling joint/feet pain,your running technique is likely the problem. (or you're too overweight for high impact exercises,etc.) and usually,the consequences of ignoring these warning signs is eventually injury. (the severity of which depends on the context)

For weight lifting in general,if you are beginning to start feeling joint pain during the exercise,assuming technique is not the issue,its usually a warning sign that you're approaching overuse injury and its time to take a break. (whether in just that specific movement or anything relating to it or from working out as a whole,again,depends on context)

Maybe the kind of pain you guys are referring to is something similar to Lactic Acid pain,rather than sharp joint pain that I'm thinking of above. In which case...I think I get the general idea. (Not that I'll claim to truly understand it till I've taken my first few lessons,haha)

 

[Maou]

Not many would be frank about those things, especially those who think MMA makes you untouchable and those self defense gurus trying to sell something.

I've been on a forum before where I've read accounts from those with a background in MMA,still running into the dreaded freeze response when they encountered a real situation. One story that I can only vaguely remember right now is an MMA'er being knocked (kicked?) off their bike and instead of getting up right away to fight off the hooligans like a superhero,he went into the fetal position. fortunately,he didn't end up getting stomped by the gang. (I forget why they didn't. if someone/something intervened or if the troublemakers just didn't feel like it)

In that MA forum,it was the typical hivemind of folks who think that anything that isn't a Combat Sport is shit and look down on any form of training that isn't geared for the ring. Well...Combat Sports training by itself didn't exactly help our biker above,did it?

I'm not saying that Scenario-Based Training would have guaranteed anything there (you can even make the argument that freezing/going fetal may have saved his life in this case,but that's besides the point.),but it might have helped him handle the freeze response better.

I'll probably respond to the rest of your comment later,but I'd like to address this as well for now:

As for a reason to train martial arts, try to think of some more reasons than just self defense.

I've already said a couple of my own reasons,but I think one more deserves a mention:

I've seen someone in a BJJ forum comment that one of their reasons for training BJJ is because they loved playfighting and "wrassling" as kids. I would say that would definitely add to my own reasons as well. I have a very vague memory of doing "point sparring" (I wasn't trained in any martial arts at the time,but hey,who didn't love martial arts cartoons and pantomiming them as a kid? haha) when I was very young. Martial arts sparring definitely allows me to relive that experience again as an adult. haha.

 

[angryclown]

Maybe the kind of pain you guys are referring to is something similar to Lactic Acid pain,rather than sharp joint pain that I'm thinking of above.

Yes, overall it's just the normal, healthy kind of pain from the body getting stronger and learning to work in different patterns. It's just a bit shocking and relentless in it's intensity from what appear to be pretty simple, non-extreme movements.

 

[Maou]

Coming back to this thread,I guess I may as well share just a few of these reports I got from some quick googling

https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/comments/11vj8mf
https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/comments/te2xsm (archived link because OP deleted their post. You can view the current thread though just by removing the first part of this link if you want to read the comments.)

The first guy froze,the 2nd guy (albeit a child) got so caught up in the intensity of the situation,they abandoned their training. (their fight also shows how the environment factors in,they were fighting on ice/a slippery surface)

Sparring is neat and all,but its just not the same thing as an actual altercation,even at hard/full contact. I think Iain Abernethy explains the issue much better than i can though:

How to Spar for the Street: Part 2 by Iain Abernethy | Iain Abernethy

iainabernethy.co.uk

A street fight is consistently frantic. It starts fast, stays fast and finishes fast. There is no time for trained reposes. Indeed there is no time for responses of any sort.

In addition to being faster, a street fight is also more emotional. The intense nature of a street situation means that neither you nor your opponent will be best placed to process the information that exploiting trained responses demands. So in the unlikely event that you do meet another martial artist in a street situation, it still won't be like a dojo or competitive situation.

A good illustration of this is the fight that broke out at the Tyson / Lewis press conference in the run up to their long awaited bout. There we had the two best heavyweight boxers at the time, but when it kicked off for real, the resulting exchange was nothing like a boxing match. It was a “street fight,” and was hence faster, more chaotic and more emotional.

Edit:

Ah,looks like the archived link won't work here for some reason,here's an imgur screenshot then:

https://imgur.com/a/zIggV8q

 

[Kozmo]

monty python run away - Google Search

I especially appreciated Abernathy's training for the "flight" part of "fight/flight"!!!

 

[duncanandrew.og]

There are so many differences in street fighting and sport fighting... A sport fight can start weeks or months before the actual event; the promoter matches two opponents based on bodyweight and experience, since the crowd wants to see a good fight and not a one-sided beating. Each fighter trains moves suitable for a particular ruleset, all the while knowing who he is fighting and when. They meet at the weigh-in. Then the big day arrives... each fighter walks out to the ring/cage, the announcer introduces them to the crowd, the referee signals the fight to start. The fighters approach each other in their stance, usually feeling each other out with long-range striking before progressing to power punches, combinations or grappling and takedowns. The best way for a fighter to prevail (based on my experience) is to remain dead calm and methodically do what he has been training to do.
A street fight typically starts with very little notice, if any. The fighters do not get to square off in a fighting stance, but instead may start with a verbal altercation, shoving and grabbing in ways not seen in a sport fight. Typically the aggressor will target someone smaller or less capable than himself. Then there is the possibility of weapons being drawn, other people getting involved and a beating continuing well after one opponent has been incapacitated.
The 'winner's' hand doesn't get raised by a referee, but cuffed by a police officer.

 

[angryclown]

A street fight typically starts with very little notice, if any.

It may often seem that way to those involved, but in reality, there are a ton of signs that bad things are about to happen. If you know what's going to happen ahead of time, you have a much better chance of avoiding the situation or taking appropriate action as needed. In terms of predatory violence, walking the other direction, crossing the street, or even indicating with body language that you know what someone is up to is usually enough. For social violence, the best thing is just not to participate in those types of situations. As a wise man once said, "the number one pre-fight indicator is that you're being an asshole."

99% of the time, for 99% of people, self-defense is 99% mental. The big problem with most of these people who say they forgot their training is not that their physical training wasn't good enough, it was that they were missing huge, important elements in their training that should have come into play before the physical aspects ever became relevant.

 

[duncanandrew.og]

It may often seem that way to those involved, but in reality, there are a ton of signs that bad things are about to happen. If you know what's going to happen ahead of time, you have a much better chance of avoiding the situation or taking appropriate action as needed. In terms of predatory violence, walking the other direction, crossing the street, or even indicating with body language that you know what someone is up to is usually enough. For social violence, the best thing is just not to participate in those types of situations. As a wise man once said, "the number one pre-fight indicator is that you're being an asshole."

99% of the time, for 99% of people, self-defense is 99% mental. The big problem with most of these people who say they forgot their training is not that their physical training wasn't good enough, it was that they were missing huge, important elements in their training that should have come into play before the physical aspects ever became relevant.

You are right, in many instances there are warning signs; sometimes some guy is having a bad day and decides he doesn't like the look of you, that can be easy to spot. In most cases, one of the participants did not anticipate getting in a fight that day, or really want to.
Forgetting the training... a person can spend 6 days every week training for controlled sparring situations with a willing training partner who is not actually trying to cause harm, but when an unexpected situation arises and escalates quickly, all that training will be useless if he hesitates or shuts down in the face of genuine aggression.
That said, most people these days do not naturally possess the right kind of combative mindset to deal with unpredictable aggression. Training something is better than not training anything.