they stole our 3rd jingang daodui!
- Thread starter jurappeneau
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angryclown
Jingang
Za is in there, too...
angryclown
Jingang
I prefer to focus heavily on under the knee throws...
Yes this is clearly your styleI prefer to focus heavily on under the knee throws...
jurappeneau
Jingang
after watching this video, YT algorithm suggested me some videos from Bagua teacher named Xu Shi Xi. Many similar techniques to us...but apparently he has studied with Feng and chen zhaokui... did you know him Marin?
Yes I know of him. I know people who learned from him, and when I lived and practiced in Beijing he would send students to find me (and other Chenyu Tudi) and try to ask to do some tuishou while pretending they wanted to learn and were beginners, with the intent to attack and then claim victory so he could brag about beating Chenyu's students.
I had a friend who lived in Beijing and at first when he was learning he learned from Xu. He was a big eastern European guy. Xu asked him to go around the park and find known teachers and their students to try to start fights with so he could claim victory and raise his reputation. He is that kind of guy, just low integrity and social climbing. He made this same demand of someone else I know. My Eastern European friend eventually found a real Bagua teacher and left Xu.
Xu has forever claimed he was a student of Feng Zhiqiang as well as Chen Zhaokui, and on top of that claims some famous (secret?) Yin style Bagua lineage. The problem is there is no record of him ever learning from Chen Zhaokui, and while he may have taken a class or two from FZQ, Feng also does not recognize him in any way. His Bagua is terribly poor, and his Chen Taijiquan is really just something he made up himself on the bones of readily available choreography, with a lot of exciting personal drama thrown in. It is a mixed soup of random stuff. He does know some normal northern Chinese martial arts applications that are common across styles based on likely a youth spent hopping from one teacher to another just checking out classes while trying to make himself into someone important. It was an American student who eventually made him famous by recommending him to other Americans on Youtube. There is more of these stories but that's a start.
jurappeneau
Jingang
thanks for those precisions...
angryclown
Jingang
jurappeneau
Jingang
Fook's sake! It's been a while since I was molested by that video.
The video speaks for itself. As I said, self invented drama. Ambition + Ego + no lineage= ....
These are the people who have some kind of personality or character issues such that the teachers they idolize will not accept them or teach them. After some years of frustration and failure to acknowledge their own character flaws (usually they have a bad reputation by then that is unfixable in the local scene) they decide they have had enough "abuse" and lack of undeserved recognition from the universe they decide it is time to claim their importance. They then figure any real gongfu is done by the individual anyhow so ... here we go.
Back to the topic of similarities, I shared one of Marin's application videos on YouTube to someone, and he said the applications look like Silat from Indonesia. As with any style, there's good and bad presentations. I enjoyed watching the ones from Maul Mornie.
I can see the use of a strong horse stance, and throwing people over the leg. I like the flow and creativity, but it seems to be taken too far in some demos - almost "look fancy for the silver screen" level.
Anyone else familiar with Silat?
I can see the use of a strong horse stance, and throwing people over the leg. I like the flow and creativity, but it seems to be taken too far in some demos - almost "look fancy for the silver screen" level.
Anyone else familiar with Silat?
angryclown
Jingang
I think Silat has the "advantage" of having a lot of the current generation of teachers having themselves used the art in it's intended context, or having learned directly from others who have. So there's a lot more stabbing and breaking and a lot less BS in Silat as compared to other styles (which is not to say there's not a lot of nonsense to be found in Silat schools). I think you have to look at the applications as a series of one-offs that are connected together for the purpose of creating a drill that teaches continuous positioning and flow while maintaining control of one's opponent. Kind of like a choreographed tuishou (frequently done with knives). Somewhere in between the literal application sequences of some karate styles and the very heavily jin-based approach of taiji.
I've played with some really, really good Silat guys, and that's part of the reason I think our method is so cool. I can clearly see how the detailed and demanding approach to stance work in this style leads to the kind of mobility Silat guys routinely display (with the added advantage of taiji's root and shenfa, etc.), which in turn ties directly to my understanding of the best ways to not get punched in the face.
I've played with some really, really good Silat guys, and that's part of the reason I think our method is so cool. I can clearly see how the detailed and demanding approach to stance work in this style leads to the kind of mobility Silat guys routinely display (with the added advantage of taiji's root and shenfa, etc.), which in turn ties directly to my understanding of the best ways to not get punched in the face.
jurappeneau
Jingang
I almost started my martial art journey with kali and silat, a long time ago. My experience was that techniques look cool and efficient, but none of us - teacher included - could deal with someone who won't be docile. We didn't have roots or exercices like push hands to deal with someone who would resist. But maybe I just didn't found the right guys...
I like the Silat thing in a general way. When I watch that I see our (same) applications all over it, and flow included. I do not see the shenfa or Jin much at all. It is a much more "external" (or local, non-networked) power arrangement, but at least in terms of a particular class of hand application there is much crossover. I think this kind of Silat is illustrating a class of applications that has been almost lost in Taijiquan, which is in the striking and long to medium range light touch leverage approach; sorry I have no good concise name for this, but it is a thing I understand.
Due to Taijiquan's own evolution it came to favor or prioritize grappling FIRST. This is close and heavy resistance, as that type of partner practice is most useful for developing and providing feedback to the foundational specifics of Taijiquan's structure and jin. At the developmental stages of Taijiquan practice (which lasts mostly forever
) we continue to want heavy feedback, and really to compel and incentivize growth in weight bearing, though legs as well as how the body holds opponents' weight and force through the limbs then trunk as connected to the legs, as well as to bear heavy force, without weight (more horizontal). More of this kind of feedback and growth incentive develops exactly how the foundation (base) networks with the trunk to produce the specific shenfa. Eventually this shenfa is then re-purposed to drive exactly the class of applications SIlat is showing here, yet on an entirely different engine and therefore a different pacing and effect.
In the Taijiquan path and paradigm these applications would be considered quite advanced, although in generally practical martial arts as well as something like Silat they are mostly just business as usual. Taijiquan takes the mundane and adds introspection, making simple things complex, or to put it more accurately, making the simple and normal energetically and physically deep and rich. In that sense the apparent path is reversed. Normal practical martial applications are seen as advanced while depth, shenfa and 'qi' are placed in the primary position. At the end of the path lies the normal, mundane, simple and effective practicalities, but by the time we arrive there we have much depth within these actions and methods. This of course is because such depth and intensity cannot be reverse engineered into it. The founders of this art realized this over many generations I guess. I myself after some decades and failed approaches and teaching challenges also realized this from confirming experience. There are plenty of self important dreamers in different martial arts out there who wold love to claim that after decades of practical simple martial arts they magically became 'internal' or whatever they want to call that, but observing, it takes less time than a shart to notice that is not the case. It's always just a cheap fantasy idea of connection. In my experience there is no way around the years of work.
The Silat above, I appreciate it. It is what I would casually call the fast "get in, get out" class of applications. Everything is done at a safe non-contact (sanshou) distance. Contact is essentially light and strategically placed to create a musculo-skeletal involuntary change/response such that not a lot of force (struggle) is needed. The flow is then harnessed to exploit the most of the changes and opportunities created. In Taijiquan this skill comes with years of Qin Na and Striking Drill practice. Qin Na develops the ability to manipulate limbs/joint at touch, because the patterns of force and leverage are established. Striking drill are a master then mix and match situation. One has to know them all or at least enough and well enough that they are natural. Then one must be able to mix them all in a flow without lacking in each. As far as the state of things in the general public Qin Na is most represented in our lineage, and striking is almost entirely lost to the art as a whole. "Get in, get out" here refers to the approach to strike and touch. It is again a somewhat light touch approach that operates at a safe distance, makes its mark and then breaks contact (gets out) always retracting to rechamber the weapon.
In comparison, the lack, or drawbacks of this approach are that it does not link or refer back to grappling. I am not saying this guy cannot grapple, he has the ideal body type for it for sure. I am saying this approach does not seamlessly link with it, specifically because of the get in, get out method. Taijiquan grappling is on the flow spectrum with joint lock and strike. It must be trained with the unbroken contact approach. No weapons are rechambered, no safe distance and no retraction. This of course is part of the reason for the specific shenfa, which to some degree was likely developed to negate the need for rechambering and 'getting out'.
Personally, while I appreciate the Silat approach above, it only makes me appreciate Taijiquan more, because it looks so similar, but it would be kind of empty and neurologically boring to me to go through these patterns without the depth and fullness. There is no going back once one has experienced that ocean of rich sensation. Of course to those who have not cultivated that (yet?) that can sound like a bunch of fantasy bullshit or worse, advertising hype, but it's very real and it is attainable.
In finality the above level of practice would be what some old timers called "third stage" or explosive practice which involved gather and release with explosive power all the way through. It is a practice of great extremes, hard and soft long and short, slow and fast, once the middle of all those and the connection has been fully built. While we appreciate illustrations and demonstratively practical fast arts as the above it is helpful to ask where it leads to, what does it lack, and what is gained by our approach. If nothing is gained it is best to move on to such a visibly available practical art, but this question is both about one's current choice of school/teacher/lineage as it is about one own hunger. If the faster gratification is what one hungers for, Silat as above would be a better bet. If the depth and connection is what one hungers for Silat and other similarly demonstrative practice styles won't get there, ever, even though it is very popular now (after Taijiquan's commercial popularity) to claim it does. It does not. Taijiquan put's this stuff at the end of the path, including and after a re-engineered body and connectivity on multiple levels. The stuff that puts this at the beginning of the path is exactly what it appears to be, only.
Due to Taijiquan's own evolution it came to favor or prioritize grappling FIRST. This is close and heavy resistance, as that type of partner practice is most useful for developing and providing feedback to the foundational specifics of Taijiquan's structure and jin. At the developmental stages of Taijiquan practice (which lasts mostly forever
) we continue to want heavy feedback, and really to compel and incentivize growth in weight bearing, though legs as well as how the body holds opponents' weight and force through the limbs then trunk as connected to the legs, as well as to bear heavy force, without weight (more horizontal). More of this kind of feedback and growth incentive develops exactly how the foundation (base) networks with the trunk to produce the specific shenfa. Eventually this shenfa is then re-purposed to drive exactly the class of applications SIlat is showing here, yet on an entirely different engine and therefore a different pacing and effect.In the Taijiquan path and paradigm these applications would be considered quite advanced, although in generally practical martial arts as well as something like Silat they are mostly just business as usual. Taijiquan takes the mundane and adds introspection, making simple things complex, or to put it more accurately, making the simple and normal energetically and physically deep and rich. In that sense the apparent path is reversed. Normal practical martial applications are seen as advanced while depth, shenfa and 'qi' are placed in the primary position. At the end of the path lies the normal, mundane, simple and effective practicalities, but by the time we arrive there we have much depth within these actions and methods. This of course is because such depth and intensity cannot be reverse engineered into it. The founders of this art realized this over many generations I guess. I myself after some decades and failed approaches and teaching challenges also realized this from confirming experience. There are plenty of self important dreamers in different martial arts out there who wold love to claim that after decades of practical simple martial arts they magically became 'internal' or whatever they want to call that, but observing, it takes less time than a shart to notice that is not the case. It's always just a cheap fantasy idea of connection. In my experience there is no way around the years of work.
The Silat above, I appreciate it. It is what I would casually call the fast "get in, get out" class of applications. Everything is done at a safe non-contact (sanshou) distance. Contact is essentially light and strategically placed to create a musculo-skeletal involuntary change/response such that not a lot of force (struggle) is needed. The flow is then harnessed to exploit the most of the changes and opportunities created. In Taijiquan this skill comes with years of Qin Na and Striking Drill practice. Qin Na develops the ability to manipulate limbs/joint at touch, because the patterns of force and leverage are established. Striking drill are a master then mix and match situation. One has to know them all or at least enough and well enough that they are natural. Then one must be able to mix them all in a flow without lacking in each. As far as the state of things in the general public Qin Na is most represented in our lineage, and striking is almost entirely lost to the art as a whole. "Get in, get out" here refers to the approach to strike and touch. It is again a somewhat light touch approach that operates at a safe distance, makes its mark and then breaks contact (gets out) always retracting to rechamber the weapon.
In comparison, the lack, or drawbacks of this approach are that it does not link or refer back to grappling. I am not saying this guy cannot grapple, he has the ideal body type for it for sure. I am saying this approach does not seamlessly link with it, specifically because of the get in, get out method. Taijiquan grappling is on the flow spectrum with joint lock and strike. It must be trained with the unbroken contact approach. No weapons are rechambered, no safe distance and no retraction. This of course is part of the reason for the specific shenfa, which to some degree was likely developed to negate the need for rechambering and 'getting out'.
Personally, while I appreciate the Silat approach above, it only makes me appreciate Taijiquan more, because it looks so similar, but it would be kind of empty and neurologically boring to me to go through these patterns without the depth and fullness. There is no going back once one has experienced that ocean of rich sensation. Of course to those who have not cultivated that (yet?) that can sound like a bunch of fantasy bullshit or worse, advertising hype, but it's very real and it is attainable.
In finality the above level of practice would be what some old timers called "third stage" or explosive practice which involved gather and release with explosive power all the way through. It is a practice of great extremes, hard and soft long and short, slow and fast, once the middle of all those and the connection has been fully built. While we appreciate illustrations and demonstratively practical fast arts as the above it is helpful to ask where it leads to, what does it lack, and what is gained by our approach. If nothing is gained it is best to move on to such a visibly available practical art, but this question is both about one's current choice of school/teacher/lineage as it is about one own hunger. If the faster gratification is what one hungers for, Silat as above would be a better bet. If the depth and connection is what one hungers for Silat and other similarly demonstrative practice styles won't get there, ever, even though it is very popular now (after Taijiquan's commercial popularity) to claim it does. It does not. Taijiquan put's this stuff at the end of the path, including and after a re-engineered body and connectivity on multiple levels. The stuff that puts this at the beginning of the path is exactly what it appears to be, only.
It looks to me that it all came from knives, the open hand approach is still showing the action of the knife.
The idea of 'one offs' connected is at least more supportable, as I am sure the MMA and tough guy crowd looks at that stuff and immediately says it is fake because the opponent is so passive. I also think this is somewhat true though. Lot's of good actions involved but when put together like this appear extremely unlikely and implausible. The failing is when the attacker shows 1, then the teacher shows 1,2,3,4,5. What is missing is the exchange, where the attacker can offer 1, then 2, and 3 while the teacher is also changing to 3,4,5 etc. What we see is 1 and a response that is creating compliance through pain or leverage at each step of the way so there is never an option for attacker 2 or 3. It's a lot of faith to place on that forced compliance that I personally don't ever have. Hopefully the teacher does not have so much faith and does not teach the students to either.
After 18 years of practicing Wing Tsun (the European variety) that's sold as "self defense", this correlates with what I and many people who walked the same path experienced. There's obviously appetite for the quick "get in, get out" kind of training that people seek as "effective self defense". The EWTO built a giant money-making organization out of it in the 90s, and they're still around. But many of us experience a plateau at some point quite early on. Sure, we learned a lot of reflexes from the "get in, get out" training of different scenarios. It's fun getting creative with the flow of techniques. But at some point we'll meet someone bigger, taller, or stronger and it just doesn't work anymore (I think similar to what @jurappeneau said above). When asked how to get better, the instructor would say "move more, keep training (and paying) and you'll get there". It usually doesn't really pan out that way, and the only truth was the implied paying part.
When we hit that plateau, many would go seeking elsewhere. Some go down the physical path, going into strength training to make up for that deficit. I remember chatting about this with Marin, and the point came up that it's not much about martial art training anymore when we get strong enough to just bash everyone with raw strength. Even without the martial art training, the muscled up person could probably have done the same, so it doesn't prove that the martial art is effective. Some people would go down the "internal" path, and try to find what's missing from the esoteric and mystical Internal Arts. Many would get sucked into the commercialized schools and get further milked with no real promise of anything to show at the end.
Going back to the European Wing Tsun, it's interesting that in the 2000s, the Grandmaster also went on his search outside of Wing Tsun for more. He used to be a big and strong guy, but hitting his 70s and losing a lot of his weight and strength, I guess he realized something. He started going down the "internal" path, secretly meeting up and training with various Internal masters. In 2017, he met with the I Liq Chuan Grandmaster, hit it off nicely, and started a partnership. This resulted in a lot of European Wing Tsun people getting exposed to an Internal art, some completely switching over to I Liq Chuan. This relationship didn't last long. I guess the European Wing Tsun Gransmaster figured it was bad for business. I'm not sure what they're doing now, but I guess he's just creating his own "Internal" Wing Tsun piecing together the things he picked up.
On reflection of all this, I appreciate and feel very fortunate to be able to land here in this class. In the last 2 years, I can say I feel some positive changes. Most obvious is at least a new set of legs that feel better and work better in everyday life. I'm sure there's much more depth and richness to be had, and plenty of things to work on that mere mortals can't fit within a lifetime. Maybe one day, I can try to use it for throwing people instead of throwing out trash, but regardless it's been useful and practical in many situations.
Yes, I read that Silat, like other Filipino Martial Arts, actually train weapons (knives and sticks) first then move on to empty hands. I think in one of Maul Mornie's videos, he explained that the hand movements are based on how the machete is used.
It reminds me about a hypothesis that perhaps Wing Chun was also never meant to be an empty hand fighting style. It was meant to develop someone to be able to use the double knives at the end of the day. This hypothesis made a lot of sense to me. I could see that the centerline theory, the emphasis on positioning and angles, helps a lot in understanding how to use weapons (not that I got a lot of practical experience to speak with
). The use of weapons nullifies the lack of power and strong structure in the Wing Chun that I've been exposed to. It doesn't require that much power to inflict damage with weapons, especially knives, in our hands.
angryclown
Jingang
I think you just got exposed to crappy wing chun. If anything, the wing chun I've seen had an over-reliance on structure and accompanying hand techniques, but if you were dumb enough to stand in front of them, you were likely in for some hurtin'.It reminds me about a hypothesis that perhaps Wing Chun was also never meant to be an empty hand fighting style. It was meant to develop someone to be able to use the double knives at the end of the day. This hypothesis made a lot of sense to me. I could see that the centerline theory, the emphasis on positioning and angles, helps a lot in understanding how to use weapons (not that I got a lot of practical experience to speak with
Overall, I think good schools of any classical martial art are pretty hard to come by. The "average" is likely a pretty poor representation of any real quality school, in the same way that the "average" taiji school is not representative of the art as we know it 'round here.