Weird Taiwan Fixed Step Competition

[Marin]

I thought this was really interesting and funny at times. Clearly a different ruleset encouraging a totally different kind of action. What is the practical value here, if any? I wonder what the rules are? It's interesting the kind of stance appropriation they choose, keeps getting lower and lower. Why not just sit down? Then no one can throw you.

 

[Edmond]

The things that stood out for me were that "weight class matters". The heavier and bigger guy is usually throwing the smaller guy. It seems like they don't have categories here?

It was also interesting to see a judge come out at 8:40 to point out the arm shape is "wrong". So the arms have to be a specific way, and it's mainly a body and legs game?

 

[Marin]

Here is another fairly low level US competition. It is not anything particularly interesting other than a study of the flaws in schools where traditional technique has been lost, and how basic students will compensate. In this case the teacher/host is also among such basic students, but apparently he is a champion of *something* based on his other youtube videos.

 

[Robin Wu]

Here is another fairly low level US competition. It is not anything particularly interesting other than a study of the flaws in schools where traditional technique has been lost, and how basic students will compensate. In this case the teacher/host is also among such basic students, but apparently he is a champion of *something* based on his other youtube videos.

I have no idea if this Shoreline Tai Chi guy is trolling or is just suffering from guilt, but he wrote this:

Folks, it's the holiday season, and I thought it would be nice to share some real footage of real events; as the Tai Chi world is awash in counterfeit goods.

But maybe I am wrong. Maybe I am just an egomaniac.

I am open to changing my perspective.

Let me tell you a few stories from my training history, which I figure most of you have never heard. All true stories. Afterwards please tell me, if an egomaniac would do any of these things.

1. When I was younger, I wanted to learn Tai Chi from a certain famous teacher. My schedule was too busy to visit him on a regular basis. However I am smarter and more talented than average, and I suspected that I could learn his style faster than his other students. Maybe I could even improve on it? Which would be good for him too.

Twice I asked this master to teach me, with a crowd of people watching. Yes I know that was uncouth... but like I said, busy schedule.

Both times he knocked me out in front of a crowd.

Very bad decision on his part.

You can't just refuse to teach people for no good reason. Especially not like that.

So I resolved to have the last laugh.

My friends said that I should just go learn another style from another school. From a nicer teacher, closer to home, more inclined to share. But that is not right or fair.

After the famous master died, I told everyone I was one of his top disciples, and that we had studied together in secret for years.

I taught my own style and told my own students it was improved from his. A bit smarter. More concise. Which it is.

Now you tell me. Does that sound like ego? Or is it justice?

2.
A few years later, critics started demanding proof that I myself was an authentic master. They said, real martial artists don't just punch the air, or topple their own compliant students. I should go and test myself against other styles.

Sorry but no. Win or lose, competing against a bunch of regular guys, makes you look like another regular guy. Besides, the Tai Chi community doesn't understand martial arts anyway. They wouldn't recognize gongfu if they saw it. They only appreciate theatrics.

So I hired a bodybuilder to "fight" me on camera. Told him to wear a golden cape, and stomp around like a menace. Then I would beat him with the entire world watching, and they would all know I was great.

Unfortunately I could not beat him! He was too strong.

So I told the cameraman to lose the footage of our first match. And I told the stuntman to relax a bit, if he still wanted to get paid.

We started over, and this time the best guy won.

Do you think that is ego? Or simply good business?

3.

Now that I had a reputation, people would occasionally come to visit me from out of town. Some challengers were polite, others not so much.

One was so rude I tossed him down a flight of stairs, closed the door, and went back for a nice cup of tea. Never heard or saw him again.

Not sure what happened to him afterwards. Someone told me that he claimed to get injured in a car accident, rather than admit what really happened. I heard he got in a lot of "car accidents" before and afterwards. Hell of a coincidence.

But if you ask me, he got exactly what he asked for.

Are you going to call that ego too? Or just superior martial ability?

I'm very confused. Why is he saying all this? Is this satire? Is this a confession?

 

[Maou]

After the famous master died, I told everyone I was one of his top disciples, and that we had studied together in secret for years.

...

I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics needed for one to still think they are somehow in the right doing this kind of shit.

What date were these comments posted? Might be April 1.

Do you think that is ego? Or simply good business?

It might not actually be out of the question that he is suffering from guilt,like you said...

Maybe we're going to witness the birth of Rokas 2.0?

EDIT:

BTW.I highly recommend you screenshot that ASAP. there is a non-zero chance Shoreline is going to delete that should he realize what he just wrote actually makes him look really bad and "Bad for Business" as he said.

 

[angryclown]

Holy shit, that is barking moon bat crazy...

 

[Marin]

I have no idea if this Shoreline Tai Chi guy is trolling or is just suffering from guilt, but he wrote this:

I'm very confused. Why is he saying all this? Is this satire? Is this a confession?

That is all so very odd. Where did he write all of this?
If he is discussing his real history he is both mentally ill AND a major jerk. If it is untrue, it is neither funny nor useful. It just reveals a certain kind of toxic mindset, obsessed with useless and troublesome ideologies. Perfect example of the sicknesses the martial arts world attracts and cultivates. Health and cultivation, not.

 

[angryclown]

Found it: https://www.reddit.com/r/taijiquan/comments/18qqbyr
Pretty sure he's just reframing stories about other famous folks that have made the rounds, and then he's going to have a big reveal and spout some bullshit like he thinks it's wisdom that's going to change everyone's perspective on life and thereby legitimize his own mediocre existence.

1. Not sure who this is. Maybe Ching Man Ching? Yang Chen Fu?
2. Chen Xiaowang (I think) had a stunt similar to this on a talk show a few years back, but there was another one with a wannabe "famous tai chi master". It all fell apart when the guy they used as the opponent on the video saw it and released the original footage, if I recall correctly. The big guy was approached to make an action movie or something like that, and then it was released as a "real fight".
3. Sounds like he's talking bullshit about Kumar Frantzis, who is himself a weirdo with weird gongfu, but before he got all jacked up in car accidents, his weird gongfu actually worked. I knew people who had felt it. Kind of unnecessary to propagate that kind of rumor about someone who, while crazy and probably delusional at this point, at least put in the effort to go and try and learn stuff when he was younger, and had the guts to try it out.

Note: The fact that Shoreline dude is trying to be clever or insightful or something does not make him any less of a delusional weirdo.

 

[Marin]

Note: The fact that Shoreline dude is trying to be clever or insightful or something does not make him any less of a delusional weirdo.

As the videos show, he is ... less than special at the martial art. It's super average western Yang style gibberish, but he is a big guy. Even then it's not impressive

It's everything else he is doing and writing that shows his psychological situation. Also fairly normal for petty cult leaders, all these people follow the same path. Apparently there are always new stinky fruits that are released from beating the dade horse, again.

 

[Kozmo]

Well I'm both confused and chagrined to see all this: The Shoreline Dude is Chris Marshall who I met and trained with privately for a few sessions.

When I first moved to Port Townsend with forty plus years yang experience, I tried to study with another ascended master, Michael Gilman of early Tai Chi Journal fame. Here's a sample (you won't want or need to watch much).

michael gilman tai chi push hands video - Google Search

Needless to say that did not go well: bad when I pushed his prize student; worse when I pushed with him! I was told that what I did wasn't really doing Tai Chi and publicly humiliated verbally and asked by him to leave the group. I don't tell people in town now that I do Tai Chi or ever practice in the park 'cause if it comes up, people always tell me, "Oh, you need to meet Michael Gilman!"

So then I contacted Chris Marshall a ferry ride away. Yes, his Tai Chi IS what's demonstrated in the video, but it was 1) way more effective than anything Gilman could offer; 2) he was a hell of a nice guy; and, 3) he appreciated my quest for martial development and it seemed he'd help me progress . Then the pandemic hit, so I wasn't taking any more ferry rides; Q introduced me to Marin and you all and I realized in a single hit that I could learn more here even just through Zoom and video than Chris--or any other local purveyors--had to offer. Never met his other students and that might have told me a lot. When I came here, what I first noticed was that some students were actually showing some inklings of developing actual gong fu . . . . . Haven't looked back since . . . .

I'm confused because nothing in his writing squares at all with the demeanor, temperament, or mental or social health of the guy I trained and had coffee with a few times. I can't actually imagine him saying, much less thinking these things! But that is him in the videos . . . . . could there be a hoax here?

I'm chagrined because I have actually spoken well of him to some Yang friends looking for more serious engagement (no, they're not serious enough to want to check out our scene).

Anyhow, traveling to Boston or Fort Collins now, I think about all the money I'm saving on ferry rides. . . . .

Cheers,
Kozmo

 

[angryclown]

Aaaaaaand the big reveal:

4.

As I said, these are all true stories from my training history. But I omitted one detail earlier, which I will share now.

I am not the protagonist in these stories.

They are, in fact, the true stories of the masters who taught the teachers who taught my critics on Reddit.

Seriously.

I included enough detail in these summaries that you can go and verify the truth of them yourselves. Verify them with anyone who knows the closed-door history of Taijiquan. Don't argue, don't backtalk, just go ahead and check. The anonymous trolls lurking this forum have been misleading you folks for a long time.

Or you can come see me in person. I can give you the names, the citations and the proof. I will demonstrate the original method, and you won't be able to argue about it. You'll have to thank me for it. As a few dozen of you already have. Because the real Taijiquan is a precious gift.

Game over. Happy holidays!

Very much in line with someone who has started to believe their own narrative, and selectively chooses to believe or disbelieve whatever they find on the internets based on whether or not it fits their current belief system. Personally, I'm all good with people who do their own thing and set their own standards for what they want their practice to be (in this case, competitive tuishou), but when they inevitably decide that their view is the correct one for everyone engaging in taiji, everywhere, it gets a bit silly.

 

[Marin]

Here's a sample (you won't want or need to watch much).

I would have had to search more. I saw some of those OLD grainy VHS copies on youtube, heavy 80's vibe there! It looks standard.
That is enough though, yes.

Very much in line with someone who has started to believe their own narrative, and selectively chooses to believe or disbelieve whatever they find on the internets based on whether or not it fits their current belief system

Yeah.. it's all standard. This makes me think they need to resurrect the archived Emptyflower just as a cautionary tale, a speed bump for all aspiring internal arts cult novices.

I'm confused because nothing in his writing squares at all with the demeanor, temperament, or mental or social health of the guy I trained and had coffee with a few times. I can't actually imagine him saying, much less thinking these things! But that is him in the videos . . . . . could there be a hoax here?

No this is all very normal. It is just sad to see it, again and again. The guy is probably great to be around for his own students and those that he feels confident respect, fear, or slobberingly adore him. If he thinks he can kick your ass, or you are impressed and will become his student, or you are his adoring follower he is probably great, a very nice, calm and well polished presentation of the wise humble master. When the counterpart is a skeptic, a threat, a wild card, a competitor or worse, just utterly lacking automatic respect it is clear that he has a massive ego tripping insecure asshole to present. In the end that is all of it, insecurity, ego fragility etc. These are the foundations of the cult leader.

That Redditt thread is really like a magic drunk 8-ball that this guy self applied. In person with a prospective student who he believes WANTS something from him he can be well presented, but then the Redditt alcohol takes effect here and he shows you his real thought process once the inhibitions are gone. I for one am not at all surprised. This is why I do not engage with any of the public in this scene. It is 99.9999999% exactly these people.

 

[Maou]

This is why I do not engage with any of the public in this scene. It is 99.9999999% exactly these people.

"Spiritual Training" ⇿ "Narcissism"

This is a correlation I thought to be the case for a while now on the internet, but I happened to have stumbled upon a 2020 study that fulfills this confirmation bias of mine: New study links some forms of spiritual training to narcissism and “spiritual superiority” Apparently, there’s this...

members.molingtaiji.com

Probably related to this. I think the Aikido community suffers from a similar problem. they wax poet about how they are the most humble and virtuous,but I've read several anecdotal reports that folks have met some of the most arrogant (and delusional) martial artists in that art. Both student and instructors.

Not to say though that the MMA/Combat Sports community don't have their own share of personality issues. I've had quite a few run ins already with folks who do not understand what Light Sparring is supposed to mean.

Albeit I seem to get the issue most often with less senior/experienced practitioners (thankfully,otherwise I would be having a really bad time,lol). I definitely understand the value of being able to handle hard contact,but not all the time!

5:55. Ramsey Dewey put it best.

 

[Kozmo]

No this is all very normal. It is just sad to see it, again and again. The guy is probably great to be around for his own students and those that he feels confident respect, fear, or slobberingly adore him. If he thinks he can kick your ass, or you are impressed and will become his student, or you are his adoring follower he is probably great, a very nice, calm and well polished presentation of the wise humble master. When the counterpart is a skeptic, a threat, a wild card, a competitor or worse, just utterly lacking automatic respect it is clear that he has a massive ego tripping insecure asshole to present. In the end that is all of it, insecurity, ego fragility etc. These are the foundations of the cult leader.

Well this certainly describes my encounter with the Gilman character--and I was just lacking respect of the "automatic" variety.

That Redditt thread is really like a magic drunk 8-ball that this guy self applied. In person with a prospective student who he believes WANTS something from him he can be well presented, but then the Redditt alcohol takes effect here and he shows you his real thought process once the inhibitions are gone.

I used to have a magic 8-ball, but it went on the wagon and kept trying to 12-step me . . . .

 

[Kozmo]

Aaaaaaand the big reveal:

Not at all redeeming!

 

[Marin]

Not at all redeeming!

No not really. The overall exercise is just pretty low level on the scale of psychological evolution.

 

[Edmond]

I just came across a video with what the Shoreline Tai Chi guy doesn't like to share: him losing to perhaps someone with more refined skills.

They have masks on, but I'm 90% sure it's him based on the look and mannerism.

 

[Kozmo]

Yeah, that's Chris!

 

[Kozmo]

Hey, Edmond, FYI There's a push-hands meetup in Shoreline with these jamokes March 10--just hours from Vancouver: https://shorelinetaichi.com/tai-chi-events/

"Alas," I'll be in Boston . . . .

 

[Edmond]

Hey, Edmond, FYI There's a push-hands meetup in Shoreline with these jamokes March 10--just hours from Vancouver: https://shorelinetaichi.com/tai-chi-events/

"Alas," I'll be in Boston . . . .

I was just wondering if it's useful for us to play with others from different lines. It looks like they are basically doing Ding Bu Tui Shou. We wouldn't want to be picking up their body mechanics, but maybe it's still a useful "lab" for testing our abilities with some live pressure?

If it's useful, there seems to be a lot of these clubs around from different lineages and styles, so it makes access to live pressure easier to find.